User talk:SallyScot 

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SallyScot

This is my talk page ~ please feel free to add any pertinent points.

Salvia divinorum spam

hiya. first, thanks for keeping an eye on the salvia article. second--keep an eye on yazazen, who hit that today with a link here:justsayonce.g2gm.com/, and on ayahausca, s/he added justsayonce.g2gm.com/whats_new.html. on ayahuasca they used an anon ip, 71.113.218.142. This is getting kinda out of hand . . .

when people spam an article, its also a good idea to drop a warning on their page so they know what they're doing and so repeat offenders are more easily recognized. a list of all template message can be found here.

I really have very little patience for people selling ayahuasca pills and advertising salvia as a great legal high. So if you spot these links again, drop me a note and i'll block the spammer.

cheers

--heah 03:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

hiya- i blocked 65.x.x.x for a month, and the other ip will be blocked for a month as well whenever he does it again. --heah 06:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Salvia divinorum - Header levels

Please see the bottom of Talk:Salvia divinorum. Thanks. --Burstroc 00:45, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Your edit to Salvia divinorum

Please stop doing what you are doing to it. Wikipedia is not censored, and from the sound of it, the quote is a bit biased. If you want to do what you are doing, discuss it on the talk page of the article first and get a majority consensus. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 12:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

3RR warning

I agree with the previous post by Nwwaew, and would also like to note that this is the third time you've reposted this content within the last 24 hours. Per WP:3RR you may be blocked if you continue. Your contributions to Salvia divinorum are valuable - and surely there has got to be something about Rep. Paul Ray you can post that's verifiable. Please stop it with the persistent reposting of this nonsense chat-board quote. Reswobslc 17:30, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

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It's unclear what's meant by Nwwaew's comment "Wikipedia is not censored". I added the following quote from House Representative Paul Ray...

"What I am doing is not to protect the morons that use drugs, it is to protect the public from morons that use drugs"

(added to what's now the Legal status of Salvia divinorum article with regard to his proposal to ban Salvia divinorum in the State of Utah)

Nwwaew removes this, i.e. censors it (literally two minutes after its re-inclusion), then comments "Wikipedia is not censored".

And as to "the quote is a bit biased": - Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy (NPOV) does not mean that we may only include reference to other views that we editorially assess as being in themselves balanced and unbiased. In fact, the policy states - "all significant published points of view are to be presented" and "Readers are left to form their own opinions". Neutral point of view is "not the absence or elimination of viewpoints".

I'm always prepared to engage in reasonable discussion (I'm not saying the quote's inclusion isn't debatable), but, please, try to make points which could be clearly considered as actually being relevant.

As to Reswobslc's issuing of a 3RR warning: - If my edits to the article are properly treated as rewordings, attempts to move things on, noting their supporting talk page entries and invitations to further discussion, then the 3RR is clearly inappropriate (and, if anything, Reswobslc is more the 3RR offender).

I suggest some misunderstandings of Wikipedia policy here - see Talk:Legal status of Salvia divinorum for further discussion.

--SallyScot 17:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment

I hate barnstars, but I am impressed by your untiring work to Salvia divinorum, to the point that I check your work to find out what's new on SD in my state before I bother to check the news. Reswobslc 18:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey, many thanks. --SallyScot 00:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Media stories link

I think your list of media stories is just fine, and are not only not excessive, but highly relevant. They are essentially references for each of the claims made for each individual state, and so they're almost mandatory. I wouldn't worry about disclaiming the quantity of links you have. The more the better. In fact it would probably make them more valuable to include the US state for each one (for the US) so that it mimics the US state list (whether done with a heading, or simply perhaps the name of the state as the first word of each link, as in...

-Reswobslc 21:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

---

Thanks. I've followed the format given for an article in the Harvard referencing section of course, but I guess we could tweak that in this case if it was felt to be useful. Personally, I'd like to keep them in descending date order, but perhaps the format for US entries could ensure inclusion of State without too much change at all e.g.

There may also be a case for <div class="references-small"> e.g.

I'd quite like to keep some kind of disclaimer as well to be honest, just to clarify. Yes, the stories need to be referred to as they're part of the overall Salvia phenomena, but I like to clearly ensure they're not bestowed with undue credibility. I do take your point though, so I'll maybe think some more about that before we get into further discussion.

--SallyScot 23:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Web forums

In general, links to discussion forums are considered inappropriate for Wikipedia articles. That line in WP:EL makes an exception for forums that are themselves the subject of the article. For example, the article about the web forum YTMND could have a link to the YTMND. So I think the links I removed should probably go, but I won't revert. Deli nk 19:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

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OK thanks. I misread what it was saying as "shares the same subject", but scanning it again I can see your interpretation is strictly correct. So in that case I'd maybe argue more generally for exception, e.g. along WP:IAR lines or some such. The forums are part of the overall Salvia phenomena, worthy of inclusion on that basis perhaps.

--SallyScot 21:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

LSD

FYI, i just added a semi protect to the LSD article that expires in a month. Lets see how that helps. David D. (Talk) 13:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks. I've started a discussion topic on the Wikipedia:Protection_policy talk page you might be interested in. Cheers, --SallyScot (talk) 23:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
No problem, I agree with your idea and another one that might be of interest is the article cloning. Every time the semi protect expires the IP vandalism starts right where it left off. You can probably identifiy the period where it is semiprotected from the edit history. I predict the exact same pattern will emerge for LSD. There are some articles that really do need long term semi protection. As volunteers we should not be wasting our time reverting juvenile vandalism. David D. (Talk) 23:53, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for advice

Your answer to my question at Referencing different pages in the same book? was useful. I thought I had to do something like that but because I wasn't so sure I didn't want to try and then get it wrong. Although one of my refs. had no year of publication anywhere on it, I think it worked out. If you have a minute can you check the citations in the history section of the Brisbane River to see if I did it correctly? - Shiftchange (talk) 00:17, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

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Hi. I think your solution for Citations and References is basically fine. You've resolved the main issue, which would otherwise be unnecessarily repeating the full details such as title and publisher for example for references to McLeod and Longhurst.

Actually, I think the help advice on the Citing sources project page could still do with a bit more work to make it clearer (it's on my "to do" list).

What I did notice about your solution though was that it was kind of a mixture of two inline citation methods, namely Footnote referencing, and Short footnote citations with full references.

What you've got works well enough, but you might want to consider making some of the remaining long citations that you've got in the Citations section into short citations (e.g. Young 1990, Ersikine 1990, O’Brien et al 2001, Johnstone 1995) and then including their full references in the References section instead, even though (with the exception of Young 1990) these don't have multiple citations to different pages.

--SallyScot (talk) 11:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Query

Could you say what your main account is, please, by e-mail if you prefer? I'm not keen on seeing someone in a protracted revert on a guideline who may have tried to do the same thing before, under a different name. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 20:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Please say what your main account is. You're continuing to revert on tiny little points in what looks like an effort to stir up trouble. Either quit it, or come clean about who you are. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 15:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

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Perhaps you missed my refutation of sock-puppetry on Wikipedia talk:Citing sources.

In addition, I can assure you that I believe in the merit of my edits. I'm an attention to detail type person. I'm sorry if that comes across as being overly fussy, but I'd appreciate it if you could assume good faith a bit more and take my edits, even the apparently trifling ones, more seriously. From my perspective some of your reverts seem unduly dismissive.

--SallyScot (talk) 18:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Citation method or technique versus style or format

Hi Dreadstar,

Re. your edit summary Citing sources 22:38, 30 January 2008 (Find consensus for this change, no edit warring)

Can you explain what you mean by consensus exactly?

In the interest of the 'Citing sources' project page's stability, and in order to avoid edit warring, I suggested this change in discussion three days prior to implementing it, clearly indicating my intent to do so if there were no counterarguments forthcoming.

I also cited summarised feedback in general support on the Citing sources talk page when it came to posting the edit on the project page.

If you disagree with the edit then I think the onus is on you to at least try to explain why.

The terms 'citation style' and 'citation format' are confusing when applied to the issue of usage or non-usage of citation templates. If you Google search the term "citation formats" for example [1] you get pages such as academic guides from universities and other educational institutions telling you about the different formats such as MLA, APA, Chicago, Turabian, AMA, etc. - e.g. [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]

Bear in mind also that my latest edit was not the 'citation technique' version that SlimVirgin had objected to, so consternation about edit warring is not really applicable on that count either.

SlimVirgin had said "To call a template a "technique" is strange writing. It is a style or a format or a method, perhaps, but "technique" is just odd." Now personally I don't consider that a constructive criticism at all. It's certainly not a substantiated argument. It's just POV pronouncements like "strange writing" and ""technique" is just odd", not backed up by any supporting evidence, actual facts, or anything like.

Dictionary definitions of 'technique' include - "method of performance; way of accomplishing" and the application of "procedures or methods so as to effect a desired result." So, in the context of citation templates, the connotation of 'technique' as in 'tools and techniques' is clearly a better term than either 'citation format' or 'citation style'.

I happen to think ‘citation technique’ is better than ‘citation method’. But even so, even so, I changed 'technique' to 'method' in the spirit of compromise and in the interests of working to a consensus. Slim's post had said "a method, perhaps" after all.

If editors such as SlimVirgin do not deign to discuss further, no other counterarguments are forthcoming, and other feedback has so far been in support of the change, then it's otherwise difficult for me to understand the issues with subsequent posting to the project page in any terms approaching reasonably equitable rules of engagement.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

Cheers, --SallyScot (talk) 19:03, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

above message copied out from User_talk:Dreadstar/Archive06#Citation_method_or_technique_versus_style_or_format - no reply was forthcoming

Citation templates

In reply to your question, I think vertical templates are the worst of all, because, unlike Chinese, the English language does not work vertically, so I find it highly unintuitive to see references scripted vertically. And you lose the whole sense of the rhythm and length of a paragraph. But your example of non-templating doesn't entirely please me, because I am not a great fan of the refname style either. Like the templates, the refname cites are difficult to combine. They create the same problem of inflexibility, and I use them only for small page ranges, always filling them out fully to forestall orphaning. In short, I don't like tricksy mechanisms.

For an idea of the styles I prefer, please check out Robert Peake the Elder (which I placed at FAC yesterday). You will see that I like to interweave informational notes with citations, in a number of permutations (a much greater number than the templates we have available could manage) based on the many listed in the Chicago Manual of Style and Turabian. qp10qp (talk) 23:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

SallyScot, you have my sympathies for your efforts in Wikipedia talk:Citing sources. I'm a C programmer; in my line of work, wordiness in comments and clarity of code presentation is valuable, so maybe that's why I prefer using templates such as {{cite web}} in the vertical style, over all other citation alternatives; it structures the reference elements and clearly separates them from the text. Plus, the use of citation templates codifies information in a way that might be more machine-searchable in the future. While recently editing Minneapolis, Minnesota I changed two things:

  1. I broke up references of the form
    <ref>{{cite web}} and {{cite web}} and {{cite web}}</ref>
    into separate references of the form
    <ref>{{cite web}}</ref><ref>{{cite web}}</ref><ref>{{cite web}}</ref>
    since that seemed to be more in the style of how most references are done. Otherwise, the cites all run together in the reference.
  2. I changed {{cite web}} and other cites from the horizontal to the vertical format. That just seems easier to edit for me, and I thought most people would agree.

I was promptly reverted by susanlesch (talk • contribs • count) who said I should first ask consensus on the article talk page before changing citation style. Well, okay. But when looking for a standard to bolster my argument, I found Wikipedia talk:Citing sources and now see what a contentious topic I wandered into.

I've followed discussions before, and don't see how anything ever gets resolved once opposing points of view are introduced, even when Support / Oppose votes are taken. If consensus is the name of the game, then it seems a decision gets made only when one side gets sufficiently tired or frustrated to give up and walk away. Thanks for keeping at it, and I'm glad you found the support of a senior editor. Wdfarmer (talk) 08:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Bugzilla bug 12796

Hi SallyScott. I responded on my talk page. Cheers. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 00:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Salvia feedback

I think your article on Salvia is excellent. I am a librarian and am planning to use it as an example on how to evaluate web pages when I teach a class on how to find informaiton on drug abuse. I am curious. Do you have a scientific background? You cite excellent references? What led you to write the article.

Thanks, Natalie

Natalie kupferberg (talk) 19:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)Natalie

Thanks for the feedback Natalie . I can't take all the credit for the Salvia divinorum article, but I was one of the editors particularly concerned about ensuring well-sourced references for its content. I'm a Wikipedia enthusiast for sure, but the citation of good references is an area sadly lacking in far too many articles I have to say. I'm not a research scientist by profession, but I do appreciate its philosophy and method, basically the demand for evidence, for which many of our politicians and lawmakers seem unfortunately quite regardless. --SallyScot (talk) 21:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

compliment on salvia page from Pharmacy Professor

As I said I used your page on Salvia for a class I did on evaluating web sources and the pharmacy professor who taught the class or "Drug Abuse" said this was one of the best pieces on Salvia he had seen. He read all twenty pages and could not believe it was written by a non-scientist. Keep up the good work. Natalie (a pharmacy librarian)

Natalie kupferberg (talk) 21:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC)Natalie Kupferberg

A new survey on the use of Salvia among college students just came out. You may want to add the information from this article to your salivia piece. Lange JE, Reed MB, Croff JM, Clapp JD.

College student use of Salvia divinorum. Drug Alcohol Depend. 2008 Apr 1;94(1-3):263-6. Epub 2008 Jan 14.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18093751?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

If you e-mail me (kupferberg.1@osu.edu) I can send you a copy of the article.

Thanks, Natalie

Natalie kupferberg (talk) 21:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)Natalie Kupferberg

Wikipedia:Citing sources/Example edits for different methods

Saw your edit to subject page. I infer that I probably made a mess with my immediately-preceeding edit to add a subsection, and that you cleaned up my mess. Thanks. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 01:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes. No problem Bill. Good to have the Harvnb/Citation example included anyway. --SallyScot (talk) 14:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Square links around uncertain publishing dates

Actually, this is the proper scientific way to do it, so please rv. For examples of use, see e.g. Nomenclator Zoologicus, Haaramo (2008) or Savela (2008). For case examples where such treatment is necessary, see e.g. the citational notes at Zoonomen. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 22:19, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

There isn't yet Wikipedia precedent that I'm aware of, and there seems to be clash with pre-existing advice re their use to indicate long ago original publication dates with author-date references. If you want to argue for their introduction I suggest raising it on relevant talk page, but in any case I don't think the best place for such inclusion is in advice about embedded links. Not having a publication date, not even having a remote idea about an approximate one, isn't really an argument for using embedded links. The wording I removed suggested making a full citation (by implication e.g. using <ref> tags) was something to do (by implication) only if author, place of publication, and date of publishing and/or last revision can be determined. That sends the wrong signal as you can use <ref> tags in preference to embedded links with whatever limited information you have. --SallyScot (talk) 22:58, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
OIC. I thought we actually had it already in the ref formatting guidelines.
But "author-date references" is exactly the problem here, for these sources do not have exactly determinable dates.
There may be some precedent in the IUCN Redlist articles that Polbot created. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 23:09, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Uninvited comment: If I understand this correctly, it's easy to hook undated author-date refs to a cite as, for example, (Smith). If there are multiple cites associated with an author: (Smith-1), (Smith-2), or (invisibly linking to the individually-intended cite) (Smith), (Smith). Square brackets are a bit messier in the wikitext (e.g., Smith, Smith-1, Smith-2, Smith, Smith), but the messiness easily be hidden inside of a template. These examples variously hook to the following cites:
  • Smith, An undated paper by Smith 
  • Smith-1, Another undated paper by Smith 
  • Smith-2, Yet another undated paper by Smith 
-- Boracay Bill (talk) 00:20, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Fiat Currency

If there is a barnstar for heroic copyediting in the face of adversity, consider youirself duly awarded! Great work on an article confounded by political dogma. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:43, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, much appreciated. The subject is not an area I know a great deal about, but even so, it looks like some editors have been forgetting some pretty basic Wikipedia fundamentals and not citing adequate sources. --SallyScot (talk) 20:44, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Salvia divinorum FAC

Just a note, it appears that an editor has drive-by nominated Salvia divinorum for FAC (WP:FAC/Salvia divinorum). The nomination doesn't appear to have been transcluded, so I've notified the FA delegate User talk:SandyGeorgia#Salvia divinorum FAC so that she can hopefully handle this presuming you don't want to nominate the article at this time. -Optigan13 (talk) 06:40, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Withdrawn, see User talk:CNash#Salvia divinorum FAC withdrawn. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:32, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for keeping me in the loop on this. --SallyScot (talk) 20:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Dead links

Hi Sally, On my computer http://www.webcitation.org didn't work yesterday, just before I added the "dead link" tag today or again when I checked it before saving this post. If it's working for you, though I must have a problem with my machine.

Regards, Dinoceras (talk) 17:13, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Dinoceras, Hmmm curious. Webcite links should be v. reliable I would've thought. You could maybe try casting around on Citing sources project talk page or Website article's talk page to see if anyone else is having a problem. --SallyScot (talk) 20:35, 29 November 2008 (UTC)