Contents 1 Featured List of the Day Experiment 2 Infobox UK place - implementation for places in Scotland 3 Safari OSX, sortable tables (2) 4 Scottish Highlands Article 5 Ulva etc 6 Tapadh Leibh 7 Infobox Scotland place 8 Rum 9 Response to earlier message regarding distances of nearby nations to Scotland 10 What's linkspam? 11 Help 12 LOTD under way 13 Imperial triple crown jewels 14 St Kilda rough map 15 Esperanto 16 Thanks for supporting my RFA 17 LOTD congratulations 18 Well well, 19 Merry Christmas and Happy New Year 20 DYK 21 Hirta Map 22 Op cit 23 Congratulations 24 Wormshill 24.1 And again 25 Auld Lang Syne 26 thx 27 Re. Template Glitch 28 Lochlann and Hinba 29 MOS mess

Featured List of the Day Experiment

There have been a series of proposals to initiate a Featured List of the Day on the main page. Numerous proposals have been put forth. After the third one failed, I audited all WP:FL's in order to begin an experiment in my own user space that will hopefully get it going. Today, it commences at WP:LOTD. Afterwards I created my experimental page, a new proposal was set forth to do a featured list that is strikingly similar to my own which is to do a user page experimental featured list, but no format has been confirmed and mechanism set in place. I continue to be willing to do the experiment myself and with this posting it commences. Please submit any list that you would like to have considered for list of the day in the month of January 2008 by the end of this month to WP:LOTD and its subpages. You may submit multiple lists for consideration.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:LOTD) 17:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Infobox UK place - implementation for places in Scotland

Thank you for your kind comments. I am also an admirer of your contributions to Wikipedia, and think that many of your comments on the infobox have a lot of merit - I plan to comment shortly. While I suspect that the flag issue will remain contentious and probably needs to be decided at a broader level (perhaps on the use of flags in infoboxes in general), I hope that many of your suggestions will be taken up. Warofdreams talk 21:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello! I too echo the above from Warofdreams. I hope some of your suggestions are facilitated to improve the coverage of Scotland. That said, I'm going to work on a new map for Scotland and hopefully Glasgow. They may not be accepted by the community, but I think someone has got to give it a shot! -- Jza84 · (talk) 13:31, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Ben, I know you are a little disillusioned about the infobox. I just wanted to check to see if you saw the |nopfa=yes field I mentioned which turns off the "services" section on selected articles. It was originally put in place for suburbs only, but you could use it anywhere - it's not code restricted. Take care, Regan123 (talk) 22:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmm (assumes faux Entish voice) ho humm, well no I didn't. I don't know that I have met a "nopfa=yes field" before - although it sounds to me like something Orcish. What's that - you've visited the Arrochar Alps? Hmm - I remember a long time ago meeting young Narnain.... (trails off into wistful reminiscence). In that case I'll look into this if you like...... but not of course hastily. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 22:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Well hopefully it is of some use. As far as I know you can enter anywhere into the infobox and it does it's magic. If it doesn't let me know and I will get hold of the person who coded it to see if they can fix it. Regan123 (talk) 22:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I experimented on Stornoway adding both 'nopfa=yes field' and 'nopfa=yes' - nothing happened. Do you mean the actual infobox template itself? Also, presumably this switches off P, F & A and not just A. The former two are useful. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 10:25, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

My apologies. Looking at the code it has changed to |hide_services=yes which works just fine. Regan123 (talk) 11:08, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

OK thanks for that. Two questions arise. Firstly how easy do you think it would be to amend this to switch off the ambulance field at source in the template as used in Scotland? Secondly, where might be the appropriate place to attempt to reach consensus that this would be a good idea? Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 11:33, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Not sure on the code. All the services use automatic look up tables to obtain the information. It might be possible to remove that one for Scotland, but it might break something else. You would need to ask someone else who is better skilled in coding. User:JeremyA did the original work on the services field. User:MRSC was the original coder of the template. As to where to discuss the consensus, FWIU you generally go to the template talk page to discuss changes on the template. If you wanted a consensus first from Scottish editors that they wanted this, then i'd use your noticeboard - if that was the desire of the editors who mainly work on Scotland articles, I don't think it could be argued with. I've said how I feel about this, but I'm not going to stand in the way if people want it.Regan123 (talk) 11:45, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

So then, here is a part of the current problem. We have exchanged a diversity of styles within a given theme for a rigorously enforced uniformity. In order to improve any given box, rather than just editing it, you think I now have to: (a) get agreement from WP:Scotland members. (b) get agreement from UK infobox place members to the same thing (and I don't share your confidence about the outcome) (c) find someone who is capable of actually undertaking the work involved. Apparently this is supposed to be an improvement.

Purely as a gedanken experiment I'd like to discuss the idea of a European Infobox place. The arguments in its favour would be developed at Talk:Brussels with the roll out being announced in Eastern Europe first to iron out any problems. Once we had a majority of European countries on board, we would then roll out elsewhere. All boxes would be in English and French or optionally (at the discretion of the governing board) in English and German. The EU flag would be prominently displayed. 'Places' would be required to conform to a standardised definition and the nearest EU consulate would be marked on each. Proposed changes to the code would be referred to ArbCom and any that were agreed would be outsourced to a suitable firm of consultants to undertake. Ah glorious day - but we can only dream. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 10:52, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

OK I think I should clarify. I don't have the technical expertise to alter the code of the infobox at the level you want. If I did, I would happily implement any consensus - I don't have a problem with that. I think actually the issue boils down to this: materials that are inboxes (in general not just this one) should be covered in the prose of an article. It doesn't have to work the other way round. There is therefore a valid argument for removing the services information altogether if it is covered in the prose of the article. Apart from the historic county all the information in the infobox came from the predecessor infoboxes, so it had been there for a very long time - that seems to be the consensus issue here. If the infobox can be merged with others (like Infobox Settlement) then I don't have a problem with that. More standardisation of the look is fine with me. If SCO editors think the ambulance needs to go altogether then I will not stand in the way. Regan123 (talk) 11:55, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I see that we are all trying to be helpful, and I appreciate that. However, what I am saying in a nutshell above is that, assuming we do not go for the kind of solution that my hasty friend Mais oui! is suggesting (and I think it has some merit), then ideally there would be a single page where both editors of Scottish articles using the infobox, and the technicians with the skills to implement any agreed requests could meet and agree. This was what I was attempting to achieve with my original interpolation. Having two separate and potentially competing processes strikes me as being less fun than a trip to the dentist. The idea that this can be successfully undertaken at the current UK Infobox place talk page, given that the very mention of it turns various editors of Scotland-related pages apoplectic is, in my view, misconceived. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 15:59, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you're right, maybe not. If so, that is a shame. I don't think another infobox is needed, but that is my opinion. As another suggestion, what about Wikipedia:Centralized discussion which wouldn't need to be on a UK/England/Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland/Ireland notice board, WikiProject or any other place that people might see as biased. That might be neutral enough, but it would need to be posted to the appropriate template, projects and notice boards so as to avoid stupid claims of cabals or anything else like that by whoever. As to your discussions it was shame they got heated as I thought we were making some progress on the issues you raised - indeed some of them have been implemented. If you want to go ahead with the centralised discussion let me know and I will see how I can help. Cheers, Regan123 (talk) 16:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Would you be interested in doing the centralised discussion idea? If so, I would happily draft something together that we could then post, subject to us both being happy with it. I would frame it into three issues - should there still be a unified box, what should be in there, should flags be up to individual articles or defined in one place? These seem the three key areas here. We could show the background of the TfD for the individual infoboxes, the previous consensus and then open it up to the floor to look at all of these. I personally think it would be more suitable than a formal RfC but am happy to go with whatever is decided. Regan123 (talk) 19:23, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I will be short of time for the next few days, but yes I'd be happy help. This was more-or-less what I was trying to achieve with my original post to Template talk:Infobox UK place/doc/examples. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 21:24, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I notice this discussion has largely drifted off into various locations and across various userpages. I was wondering if anyone would care to heed an appeal to bring it all back to the discussion page and deal with it in one easily accessible fashion. --Breadandcheese (talk) 17:16, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Which discussion page? Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 17:20, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Safari OSX, sortable tables (2)

A few items higher on this page (14:15, 30 October 2007) I asked a question about sorting tables. I just noticed that the latest upgrade for Apple software (of last week), including an upgrade for Safari, seems to have fixed this problem. VanBurenen (talk) 20:39, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

That's good news, and thanks for letting me know. I only just discovered that there is a similar problem with the {reflist|2} template - it simply makes the font smaller and doesn't create two columns. Do you know if that's fixed as well? Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 08:37, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I checked in [What links here] the first two articles: Anarchism and Autism for {reflist|2} and they both show two columns in my Safari browser for the long list of references. I don't know what it showed before the recent upgrade. I hope that answers your question. I believe the bugreport was [1]. VanBurenen (talk) 13:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Scottish Highlands Article

Hey thanks, yeah I will cite whatever I put in the article. I've never really editied anything here,so it might be a bit before I get at it. I just think that the article gives the wrong impression that the Highlands might have a similar religous makeup, to say the Republic of Ireland which isn't true. (Not that there is anything wrong with the ROI or its religous demographics, just not the same as Scotland.)99.249.132.254 (talk) 15:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough - and if you need any help with the reference protocols, just let me know. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 18:21, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank You very much, I think I might, would the council census results I quoted be good or would that be original research? I left a message on the Scottish Highlands board but I forgot to mark it, but yes any help you could give would be great since as I said I am new to wikipedia and a Canadian as well so I'm not exaclyt up to the day to day in Scotland.Thank you again99.249.132.254 (talk) 06:18, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Surely. The simplest format you can use is to add

<ref>[the url and "page name"] (publication date - if any) Publisher. Retrieval date.</ref>

(Note that the 'nowicki' tags you can see if you go to edit mode on this page are there just to show you what this looks like when not in edit mode - you don't actually type them in.)

In this case in edit mode the reference would look like:

<ref>[http://195.173.143.171/plintra/iandr/cen/prof_high.htm "2001 Census Profile - Highland"] The Highland Council: ''Comhairle na Gaidhealtachd''. Retrieved on [[23 November]] [[2007]].</ref>

Without the nowicki tags in this mode it just looks like:¹, but in the references section it should appears as:

1. ^ "2001 Census Profile - Highland" The Highland Council: Comhairle na Gaidhealtachd. Retreived on 23 November 2007.

Note also that the gaelic name of the publisher is both optional and in italics. I fear that 'simple' is something of an exaggeration, but I hope that's useful. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 08:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for flagging the need for cite in the "Historical crossings" section. I was a trifle lazy in omitting such. By the way you have the most creative and entertaining user page I ve seen on Wikipedia. Cheers. Hadrianheugh (talk) 18:06, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Kind of you to say so, although I am a great admirer of Captain panda myself. BM (browser won't sign)

Ulva etc

I'm just trying to think what else to do with it... I am going to try and get some half-decent geological references - most of what goes for Staffa, and/or Mull must go here...

• Expand 20th Century
• Clan MacQuarrie - pre-17th century
• Try and work out sequence of owners (before FW Clark)

I will look up some Mull books (as opposed to Ulva alone). I was delighted to find the Beatrix Potter reference - I wasn't aware of it, til a few days ago.

Anyway, I think that with luck, this can show what can be done with a reasonably small island. The Shapinsay article is excellent, but then again, it's well populated, which Ulva sadly isn't anymore. Not wishing to brag, but I reckon Ulva is now a better article than Mull.

Very much so

I've been thinking about your suggestion for next month's collaboration. I think Shetland would be in order - I mind you said something about Linga... I had originally reckoned that there's not enough to go on there, but I will be offline for a good chunk of December anyway. I think it would be good to circulate the collaborations around the different island groups, at least to begin with. --MacRusgail (talk) 15:53, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

OK - we don't really have a clear system yet, but its easy to sort out. I'm more inclined towards the Firth of Clyde ma'sel as we ;;don't have a GA from there yet, but I'm not attached. Incidentally I have been redrafting the Islands of the Firth of Clyde with table etc - you put a good history section - but do you have a ref or two I can add? Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 11:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

PS This conversation now has Infobox chat on both sides. I think we're surrounded!

LOL! Please specify what exactly you want the ref.s for... Yes, Clyde/Forth is probably due. Both have some articles which could be tidied up greatly. It would be good to get some rotation anyway (just because St K & Mingulay got improved, then Skara Brae and Shapinsay). --MacRusgail (talk) 15:13, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

This edit. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 15:45, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, but give me time to do it, and prod me if I don't. Anyway, I've kind of run out of steam on Ulva. I will try and add some more, but am needing a break! MacRusgail (talk) 17:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Well you've been very busy and deserve some time off! I see young Lurker is already dashing into the FAC room - I prefer to leave an article alone for a few weeks and then go back to it and tidy it up before launching into a GA/FA myself. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 21:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words. I am going to add a wee bit today, and then leave it. Still needs better early Medieval History + geology anyway. --MacRusgail 13:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Tapadh Leibh

Tapadh Leibh (Thank You)...

...for helping me navigate the waters of my surprisingly peaceful RFA, which closed successfully with 85 supports, 1 oppose, and 0 neutral.

I would particularly like to thank Acalamari and Alison, my nominators, and everyone who watched the page and ran the tally.

Your support means a lot to me, MacDui. If there is anything I can do to be of service in the future, please feel free to contact me.

And forgive me if I need a Wikibreak now and then (like now. I'm exhausted!). You wouldn’t want to see me climbing the Reichstag, now would you?

Off to flail around with my new mop! (what?!)

Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫
This RfA thanks inspired by Neranei's, which was inspired by VanTucky's which was in turn inspired by LaraLove's which was inspired by The Random Editor's, which was inspired by Phaedriel's original thanks.

Infobox Scotland place

Thank you.

I think that we ought to discuss this at WP:SCOTLAND, with a view to re-establishing the project's own Infobox. I am short of time at the moment, not least cos I am getting married soon, but I will certainly contribute as best I can. In my opinion your type of approach is far more likely to bear fruit. We have a very strong case. I just cannot stand the array of insidious cads and fools that comprise the Scotophobe Chapter here at Wikipedia, and to your great credit you probably achieve more with your faultlessly civil and constructive approach than I do with my more instinctive and brusque one. --Mais oui! (talk) 05:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations - did you a buy a tandem in the end? I take it you won't be honeymooning in Egypt. If you fancy a romantic Highland hide-away do call in, but don't forget to bring your crampons. Sorry - I thought we were playing 'good cop, bad cop'. Would you like to change roles for a while? Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 10:57, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Rum

Hi Ben - just to say I think you're doing a great job with the Rum article - it's looking so much better. Dhmellor (talk) 11:02, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank-you for your support. It's certainly getting there. (I'm taking your word for this 'Annan' business btw - I don't have the book yet.) Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 11:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Trust me, it's true about Annan! The Rum website has it too: [2] Dhmellor (talk • contribs) 18:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah splendid - I missed that! Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 18:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Response to earlier message regarding distances of nearby nations to Scotland

I used Google Earth to calculate the distances (in kilometers and miles) and approximated them as best I could. I measured the distance from the Kintyre peninsula to the island of Ireland as 21 km, in contrast to the 30 km given by the previous edit. In the article "Geography of Scotland" there is a source given for the old values (Scotland Atlas and Gazetteer), but I think the distances had been miscalculated somewhat, particularly the distance to Norway, and I thought the distance to Ireland, being such a low value, should be accurate to the nearest kilometer, especially because of the way it's mentioned in the article. Anyway, I don't know how to source this; maybe finding out who edited the previous distances would help. Thanks for taking notice of my edits. Sincerely, Velvetron (talk) 21:44, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Should Denmark, and perhaps Germany be included as neighbours to Scotland? The Faroe Islands certainly neighbour Scotland as well. --MacRusgail (talk) 17:00, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we need a lengthier list in the Scotland article. Arguably this might enhance Geography of Scotland. I have made some more changes to both - see my comments at Talk:Geography of Scotland. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 21:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Germany is stretching it, but certainly the Danish state has two maritime boundaries with the UK, so there's an argument there perhaps. --MacRusgail (talk) 17:10, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

What's linkspam?

You just undid my South Uist flag contribution. --132.229.27.151 (talk) 16:05, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Linkspam occurs when someone links Wikipedia to a commercial site that appears to serve no encylcopedic purpose. So far as I know the South Uist flag has no official standing at all, and the site you linked the contribution to is not a verifiable source, but rather one which is selling the flags. I am 'on the road' at present and using a rather dodgy browser so I can't easily check all the details, but that was my logic at the time. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk

The "commercial site" you name is Flags of the World - the official vexillological source which actually predates the Wikipedia. They are not a commercial site by any means - quite the opposite. Reverting your revert unless you have a further objection. (Maybe you were confused by the banner ad - not part of their site) --132.229.27.151 (talk) 10:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Whether or not the site is commercial is moot. However, it is not an 'official' source of anything so far as I can see. Discussion continues at Talk:South Uist. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 19:45, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Help

What should one do with an edit like this from SooBahkDo which I reverted thinking the style was not right for Wikipedia but was subsequently put back and this notice placed on my talk page? Harland1 06:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

You could post a polite reply to SooBahkDo on his/her Talk page explaining why you reverted the earlier edit and explaining that 'modifying edits' is what Wikipedia is built on, referring to the third of the Five Pillars and perhaps also pointing out WP:OWN as a relevant policy. (WP:COI may also be relevant although I wouldn't start there). As an alternative, or in addition you could drop a similar note to the one you left me to the Talk page at P:MA - someone there may be able to advise regarding the specifics. Hope that's helpful Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 19:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

LOTD under way

Thanks for submitting a list to WP:LOTD. January nominations are closed and February nominations are open. The January nominee commenting has begun. Feel free to participate in the commentary.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:LOTD) 16:28, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for nominating a candidate at WP:LOTD. You may want to come by and address some of the feedback you have received before voting begins, which it will in less than 24 hours.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 00:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I am surprised at the number of people who have nominated candidates and participated in feedback, but have not voted. If I had made voting mandatory, would it have kept you from nominating an article?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 17:10, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Nope - I am just v. busy off-wiki at present. So many tourists with so few maps and compasses. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 08:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Imperial triple crown jewels

I, Durova, am delighted to bestow these imperial triple crown jewels upon BenMacDui for superb contributions to Wikipedia's coverage of Scotland. Thank you for your generous efforts to build a better encyclopedia. Durova^Charge! 04:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Your Imperial Majesty, someday I hope to see some of those islands myself. A delightful read! Durova^Charge! 04:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Goodness me - what an embarrassment of riches! You are most kind. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 21:59, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

St Kilda rough map

Map of St Kilda archipelago

Hi MacDui, here is a map of the St Kilda islands I made for the article. What do you want labeled and how? Font types? I need to add a distance scale, anything else? When it is to your liking I will upload it to Commons. Cheers, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 21:08, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

This sir, goes beyond the call of Peer Review duty! The main island names of Soay, Boreray, Dùn and Hirta for sure. Perhaps in a smaller font Stac Lee, Stac an Armin, Levenish and Village Bay? Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 22:49, 3 December 2007 (UTC) PS Please be careful when moving my jewels. PPS The bottom image at [3] is a hoot.

• As I was reading the article I just kept thinking this needs a more detailed map. The labels are done - you may have to WP:BYC to see the new version. I used 14 point type for the main islands, 12 point for the smaller features. If you want fixes, please say so. I still need to do the distance scale and add it. Once it is all done, I will upload it to Commons. Thanks for the link - I loved watching the time lapse photos of Boreray and the stacks (Stacs?), but was not able to catch a glimpse of the two Eifel Towers ;-) Take care, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Looks great. My only suggested tweak is that the main description need only say 'St Kilda' rather than 'St Kilda, Scotland', which is simply a Wikipedia disambiguation. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 20:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks, I did notice that the article refers to Stac Levenish all three times, so I will change that on the map as well. Now that the copyedit is done, I have a few more points for the peer review (mostly minor), and should add those in the next 24 hours (hopefully sooner). Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 22:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks- incidentally I apologise for any confusion caused by overlapping League of Copyeditor work and the peer review. When I saw the list at the former I was assuming it would be next spring before they came to call. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 18:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
    • No need to apologize - I have also benefitted from Finetooth's remarkable gift (on Presque Isle State Park) and was glad to wait for edits from the Outback (although I must admit if I were in the Outback or the wilds of Scotland, I think I would go on a wikibreak!). Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 20:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Map of St Kilda archipelago with Gaelic names where those differ from English

This is an excellent map Ruhrfisch, but can I suggest that the Gàidhlig spelling is included in brackets after each name, as there is space to do so? The Ordnance Survey is pursuing an uneven policy of regaelicising the names, and this may help avoid confusion. --MacRusgail (talk) 12:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

• I would be glad to include the Gàidhlig spellings, but could you or MacDui please provide them here - I would hate to make a mistake. I also compared the map to the NASA image and found I have to move Boreray (and its Stacs) and Stac Levenish west slightly, so the map will be a little tighter, but not enough to preclude both spellings. It should make the image appear slightly bigger too. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 20:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Let's not go overboard here. First of all, how will the map explain, if at all, what the names are for. Hirta = Hiort fair enough, but Stac an Armin = Stac an Àrmainn etc. are all just different spellings, not different names and are not referred to directly in the text. I'm concerned that the map will just become confusing. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 20:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

• OK, for now I have made the map with the scale and adjusted the distances to Boreray and Levenish and uploaded that. If it is OK, I will upload it to Commons and delete this version. If you want I can try an English / Gaelic version, perhaps with names in Gàidhlig in brackets and italics - I have seen similar labels for Alsace, where there is both a French and a German name for a place. So Hirta (Hiort) - I am afraid the map would be much more crowded looking this way. Just let me know if you want the other version, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 21:27, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
• PS Could you let me know if the new version is OK, so I can upload it to Commons - not sure I made that clear above, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 21:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
  • There are two versions of the map now - I leave it to whomever to decide which to use. Both are on Commons and the English only version will be deleted here soon. As for the location of Gleann Mòr, I just meant to briefly describe in that section where it is again (something like "Gleann Mòr, on the north coast of Hirta, ..."). I do not think it needs to be on the map. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 12:27, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The bilingual version is fine, but should include "Boraraigh" (Boreray) as well. Thanks for your work. It is an excellent map.--MacRusgail (talk) 18:39, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for your kind words, I have added Boraraigh to the map too. My favorite is now Stac Levenish (Stac Leibhinis) with 25 characters for a speck on the map ;-) Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 19:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks for your support at my RfA and I laughed out loud at the edit comment on it. I was trying not to canvas (which is frowned upon) and have only mentioned it to users who had already expressed an interest in (co)nominating me. St Kilda is looking very good, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:52, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
  • PS Thanks for your concern about the balance between admin work and article work - it is something I have wondered about too. I still plan to do most of my wiki work on writing and improving articles, but I already do a fair amount of vandalism reverting and warning and maintenance work, so when I was asked the third time about being an admin I said yes. Take care, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:07, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Esperanto

Actually, I take back my point about Esperanto. I think it's easier to learn than IPA. The only IPA I enjoy dealing with on a regular basis is Deuchars.

Thanks for the pointer to the audio file discussion... --MacRusgail (talk) 12:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for supporting my RFA

	Thanks for your support, my request for adminship passed 62/0/0 yesterday! I want to thank Snowolf and Dincher for nominating me, those who updated the RfA tally, and everyone for their support and many kind words. I will do my best to use the new tools carefully and responsibly (and since you are reading this, I haven't yet deleted your talk page by accident!). Please let me know if there is anything I can do to be of assistance, and keep an eye out for a little green fish with a mop on the road to an even better encyclopedia. Thanks again and take care, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:03, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I am still working on articles - Snyder Middleswarth Natural Area is my latest (though not done). I am watching St kilda and will weigh in at FAC when it gets there. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 18:03, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

LOTD congratulations

Congratulations!!! List of islands of Scotland has been chosen in the inaugural class of January 2008 LOTDs. I hope you will continue to participate in the WP:LOTD process. If you have a date preference get back to me by the end of 2007-12-23 UTC.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 06:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Well well,

Looks good, but WP doesn't use single quotes unless for a quote within a quote (quite a lot I haven't fixed, such as the single letters—they could be italic if you think it's neater). So it's italic for words as words, and I'm unsure about English translations, but it looks better to me to use double quotes within the parentheses (and not "which means ...", btw). I've asked SandyGeorgia about "op cit", which, like "ibid", might be a little old-fashioned now. Is it dotted? (I hope not.) Comma better before page numbers, and most people do "p." rather than spelling out "page" (but that's up to you). Two-digit closing page range I like, but that's a personal preference. MOS prefers it for years, anyway.

I notice that you integrate two ideas into many sentences without a boundary before the linking "and". See where I've added commas, which you may feel makes it a little easier for the reader when the second idea is not very very related to the first, or part of a list.

Watch the logical punctuation, where a quote is nested within one of your sentences (period or comma after the closing quote). See MOS.

"avers"?

Lots of "also"; some instances are OK, but see if you can weed some out elsewhere to strengthen the flow. I took one out of this section.

Think about the present vs past tense when reporting other sources. Often difficult, but try to appear consistent! Tony (talk) 08:03, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

PS Wish the blue wasn't so gaudy, and the infobox—"Meaning ... of Unknown"? "Although St Kilda was permanently inhabited for at least two millennia and had a unique way of life, the local population was evacuated in 1930." Logic of "although" is unclear. The etymology section almost needs an article of its own—the detail is a little over the top. But I'm not complaining. However, why not remove mention from the lead and substitute something else. I see that the seabird point is an awkward parastub in the middle. Does "mi" need to be linked? You can abbreviate, say, "metres" to "m" as main unit after the first occurrence if you want; that's a more recent change in MOS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony1 (talk • contribs) 08:11, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks Tony. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 10:16, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Re your comment: If this was translated from the Gaelic, you could fix up the English; the present tense is a little awkward. Even consider not directly quoting, but paraphrasing, since you provide the reference—

It is a direct quote from the Old Scots, not a translation. I think a few phrases of this nature add a little local colour.

where is the page number? - its a web site with scrolling text and no page numbers. I'm afraid my budget does not stretch to an original.

Do we still use "op cit"? Well, at worst I hope it is a quaint throwback rather than something that is in breach of MOS. I await Sandy's pronouncement and no, its not dotted.

de Nicolay map - ref? Where is this map now? The ref is Quine (2000), but I have added a more direct ref for the map, which is in Edinburgh. The link actually shows the map - but Skildar is almost certainly Haskeir not Hirta.

'aver' - to 'state to be true' or so I aver.

Have put it into FAC room but will continue to look for glitches per above comments.

"Although St Kilda was permanently inhabited for at least two millennia and had a unique way of life,"

The 'although' is intended to convey the paradox of a community that sustained itself for thousands of years meeting the disaster of the technologically more advanced (but of course quite unsustainable) 20th century. This may not be clear, but I can't immediately think of a way to improve it. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 12:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I stopped by to say I'd weighed in at the FAC and saw this - perhaps "despite" would work, something like:

"Despite St Kilda being permanently inhabited for at least two millennia and the inhabitants' unique way of life, the local population was evacuated in 1930."

Hope this helps and good luck on the FAC, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 14:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

It does - thanks.

• I've just received info from ahigh on op cit et al.: "Yes, it's in WP:FN, and the reasons are there ... we use named refs instead, in case text is moved around. Doesn't make sense in a dynamic environment where people can move text around or insert new text in between." Tony (talk) 14:50, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I can see why ibid would be a problem, but it wouldn't matter with op cit as this simply a direction to a previously cited text (in this case in the References section). I don't see a mention of op cit at WP:FN. If you can direct me to a particular piece of policy or an authoritative interpretation of the same I'd be grateful.

You may also possibly be interested in Wikipedia:WikiProject Scotland/Assessment/FA. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 19:01, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

Dear MacDui, I wanted to wish you a very Merry Christmas and all the best for the New Year! Yours, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 19:29, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

DYK

On 27 December 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Hinba, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Maxim_(talk) 14:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Hirta Map

Hi MacDui, with the holidays I do not have a lot of internet access, but I think I could add numbers to the existing map for the summits. Looking at this source, which items do you want added? There would be a number on the island, then a key with the number and name in the lower left corner. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• I went ahead and made the map and here it is - it is only 252 pixels wide (based on the Hirta section of the St Kilda map I made). I read the article and added all the summits mentioned, the village, Gleann Mor, and the Mistress Stone. Please let me know if this is OK, or if there are any changes that need to be made. I will let you add it to the article as you see fit. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

First of all many thanks for all your help and encouragement on this now successful FA attempt. Secondly, its an excellent map, and will do fine service. All the very best for 2008 - and don't hesitate to let me know if you need any assistance with anything. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 13:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• I added my congratulations below already. You are very welcome - glad you like the map and that it is useful. I am sure I will ask for your assistance on some things I plan to work on in the coming year and look forward to more excellent Scottish articles, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Op cit

Hi MacDui. I don't mean to step on your toes with the op cit business. I didn't mess with the citation style on the first go-round because I figured you had picked the style you liked. Since the question has become a minor stumbling block at FAC, I chimed in with an opinion. If you decide to remove the ops and the cits, I'd be glad to do it. You've got plenty of other things to do, and I like doing otherwise tedious autopilot things as a break from more serious editing. Just let me know if you'd like me to do this little chore. Finetooth (talk) 23:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I greatly appreciate your help to date. Secondly, whilst I find it perplexing that although MOS has vast volumes of confusion it fails to mention that this specific is banned, that's hardly your fault. Doris Lessing once wrote a fine phrase essentially saying that when confronted by the apparently haphazard caprice of the Gods, mere mortals were allowed only the slightest hint of irony. I fear that by the end of a long day yesterday I was beginning to move into the grey area between irony and testy. Your offer is most kind, and if I run out of steam on the task I will certainly ask for your assistance. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 11:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations

All's well that ends well, as this fine article was bound to. I tip my hat to you. Finetooth (talk) 06:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Let me also add my congratulations - a fine addition to Wikipedia and a memorial to a vanished way of life. Well done, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Wormshill

Congratulations on the FA in St Kilda, unfortunately now your reputation now preceeds you! I appreciate this may be outside your normal field (and disturbingly south of the border) however I currently have Wormshill at FAC and, doubtless due to ownership and emotional attachment issues, I am getting a pasting from Tony1 for being unable to see the errors in "my" prose. The piece has already had one copy edit and I have put feelers out with other editors who have had success with UK-GEO FAs (so don't feel obliged) but I wondered if you might take a look and see if you can offer any advice/comments. Many thanks in advance. Dick G (talk) 22:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I fear the rumours lack accuracy. I am a mere “gatherer o’ bla'" rather than a copy editor, and I rely on the kindness of strangers for this dark art.

Nonetheless, I have had a quick look at the FAC and here are a few suggestions based on this piece of work in progress.

• Persistence and politeness do pay off. If in doubt just keep editing away at what you have been asked to do.
• The written word can be a very poor medium for this kind of discussion as it is extremely hard to tell what emotional content is behind the edit. It is quite possible to be outraged in a friendly sort of way. I think you have been extremely polite so far, but anything resembling even mild sarcasm should be avoided.
• Tony may occasionally appear to have the odd grumpy mood, but look at the issue from his perspective. He is probably the kind of person who read the whole of WP:MOS in one go and remembers 95% of it. When blundering buffoons such as you and I appear with the umpteenth FAC this month that appears to ignore crucial rules it must be hard to keep smiling. He and others like him are the guardians of consistency of style in what appear to me to be almost impossible circumstances.
• Buddingjournalists comments are apposite. If things progress you will get another bollocking if they are not fixed.

I’d try to be more proactive but I am running out of runway in 2007 and my religion forbids me to work on New Year’s Day. Good luck! Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 15:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• • Thanks for the pointers. It took a while for me to see it but I do believe that "friendly outrage" does seem to fit the bill quite well. MOS is a beast and I probably won't do battle with it again any time soon although for what it is worth it has meant the article now looks rather dashing (not sure if that's an ndash or an mdash by the way...) Hopefully all comments on the piece are now fixed and the FAC will close positively. Thanks once again and all the best in 08. Dick G (talk) 04:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

And again

Pleasure to help Ben. May need some help later in the year with it's namesake, if the enthusiasm strikes me. Just realised, sitting here in the new-years-day afterglow of too much Glenfiddich and Glenlivet, that I've stood on you in my youth. Hope your Christmas and New Years are treating you well - all the best - Peripitus (Talk) 00:49, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Excellent. I shall ask Fear Liath if he remembers you. I have had a look your St K. Frustratingly, there does not seem to be a direct connection between the two. I'd be happy to help if I can. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 10:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Auld Lang Syne

Thanks for the New Year's greetings - we still sing Auld Lang Syne here (though we doubtless mangle the pronunciation). All the best for 2008 to you too, oh messenger from the future ;-) . Thanks too for the Stac Lee picture - I have sadly never been to Scotland, but St Kilda is now on my list of places to see (as well as Scotia's mainland). Take care, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:23, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

thx

Thanks for you note; hogmany sounds like ... Lord of the rings! Tony (talk) 11:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Re. Template Glitch

What do you refer to? Maser ^(Talk!) 00:12, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Lochlann and Hinba

I see you're busy with St Kilda. I remember being impressed earlier, so I'll pop over and have a snoop around. I wrote something for Lochlann. I'm sure that there are lots of stories about the "king of Lochlann's son", but I can't find any. Ideas? As far as Hinba goes, the Garvellach theory gets a bit of a kicking, and Colonsay has some support. It still seems like Jura is the favourite, but other theories include Gunna and Oronsay. I'll add the various bits and bobs I have. Toodle pip! Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:20, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the cats. There are a couple of brief refs to the legend of Prince Breacan of Lochlann at Lunga, Firth of Lorn and Gulf of Corryvreckan. Yrs in haste. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 18:37, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Haswell-Smith op cit ad nauseam page 51 says of the Corryvreckan: "It is often said that the tidal race was named after Breacan, a Norse Prince, who foundered with his entire fleet of fifty ships. But from Adomnan's Life of St Columba it would appear that this calamity occurred in the tidal race between Rathlin Island and Antrim. Nevertheless, Breacan is reputed to be buried in the 55m-deep cave on the south side of Bagh nam Muc at the north-western tip of Jura .... Martin Martin [4] reported in 1695 that 'Breacan's stone' a tomb and an altar were in the cave.

Martin says "This gulf hath its name from Brekan, said to be son to the King of Denmark, who was drowned here, cast ashore in the north of Jura, and buried in a cave, as appears from the stone, tomb, and altar there." I have a bit more on Breacan from WH Murray somewhere if you think it's relevant. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 19:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Good day, BM; hope you and your Munro family are all well. Regarding Eileach an Naoimh I noticed that the Scottish Parliament website spells it as na h-Eileacha Naomha which apparently means the holy rocks. Perhaps phonetically, Hinba and Naomha could be related? Rgds, Bill Reid | Talk 13:59, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

And a merry Xmas Eve to yourself and the Reids. As Stevenson himself lamented of a Gaelic translation of Dubh Artach "as usual, in Gaelic, it is not the only one." Did you see the new page at WP:SCO btw (hint, hint). Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 14:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the headsup on the new page; went completely below my radar! Good work though. If I do put any forward and fail, I now know who I can blame ;-) Rgds, Bill Reid | Talk 16:15, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

MOS mess

Yes, MOS and its subpages are in sore need of rationalisation and coordination. It's an issue that exercises the minds of those who contribute regularly to MOS. Unsure what to do about it, and it would be a major undertaking to do the job properly. Tony (talk) 15:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)